I was on board with eliminating the laws criminally punishing sodomy, but this has gone way too far. Prop 8 passed because even the liberals are starting to recognize the need to draw a line in the sand between tolerance for and active encouragement of something abnormal that most people find perverse. Homosexuals should be ashamed of themselves for equating their so-called "struggle" with blacks or women -- immutable, identifiable groups that were actually repressed, not just denied fringe benefits. Come on homos! You made your choice, deal with the extremely limited legal repercussions of it! Think long and hard about what you want: a legitimate family with the legal benefits that come with it, or sexual gratification from a member of the same sex. I'm not saying you should choose the first one, but stop expecting the rest of us to give you a trophy and a parade for choice two.
And by the way, spare me the lame cop out about how it's "not a choice" because you've "had these feelings since 4th grade." Maybe so. Alcoholics "have a feeling" too. So do the morbidly obese. And compulsive smokers. And pedophiles. The law shouldn't bend over backwards to extend special benefits to help them satiate their inclinations for booze, food, nicotine, or prepubescent boys. And it shouldn't bend over backwards to reward you for sexual attractions either. No offense -- I'm not "hating" on it, but you have to admit it's not normal and not worthy of encouragement.
Now that the gay rights movement has achieved important levels of acceptance and tolerance, it has turned into a gay encouragement movement. But the only thing driving it is the overly empathetic sentiment of modern America that "everyone is perfect," "nobody's choice is better than anyone else's choice," and "people have no control over their subconscious desires." Right. Wake me up when we're all man enough to admit that we each make imperfect decisions and suffer from abnormalities in our own ways, AND that there's nothing wrong with society implementing incentives to reward that which is morally, socially, or economically desirable. Don't get all bent out of shape about society expressing mild disapproval of one thing that you prefer.
Cry me a fucking river about "sitting in judgment" or the purported "immutability" of your sexual orientation. I am not suggesting that you "straighten up and try to fly straight." I am simply echoing prevalent concerns about the deleterious effects of promulgating this bullshit "I can't help it, it's who I am! I'm not responsible for anything I say/do!" attitude that is infecting every aspect of society nowadays. Here's why I'd vote for Prop 8 if I lived in Cali:
The only legitimate argument for creating a new definition of marriage is grounded in equal protection principles. States have a legitimate interest in encouraging the nuclear family, if for no other reason than the perpetuation of our species. So in order to justify striking down pre-existing laws along these lines, homosexuals have to portray themselves as some sort of vulnerable class worthy of special protection. (NOTE: The protection afforded by the Equal Protection Clause is "special" and it cannot be blindly invoked by every man, woman, and child. Contrary to popular opinion in the gay community, equal protection does not mean that every single person gets to do whatever he wants, or that the government cannot pass laws which classify by certain criteria. EVERY law classifies by certain criteria! The question is whether an identifiable group can invoke a heightened level of judicial scrutiny when challenging laws that affect them.) This premise in turn relies on the assumption that homosexuality is an "immutable" characteristic like race or gender. FALSE. There may be a genetic component to it, and it may not be something that we can change like our hair style. But it is impossible to conceive of sexual orientation (or any other sexual inclination for that matter) as "immutable" without conferring the same status on every other subconscious predisposition known to mankind. This is a huge problem because it provides an irresponsible justification for every action: "I can't be expected to restrain myself from eating/drinking/molesting/sleeping around/doing what the voices in my head tell me to do! The urge is an immutable characteristic!" For this reason alone, expanding the definition of marriage to include same-sex couples will likely have deleterious effect -- unless doing so is somehow premised on a completely different rationale that explicitly rejects sexual orientation as some kind of protected class.
Look gays, nobody cares if you change or not (well, at least I don't). But personal *desire* to change is not the same thing as the *ability* to change, and that is what we’re talking about when it comes to mutability and protected classes. Sure, you have a STRONG predisposition toward your sexual orientation. Just like I do for mine. But that doesn't mean either of us are members of some special "class" akin to blacks or women in the eyes of the law. It just makes us human.
So your preference is atypical and society rationally deems the majority preference somewhat preferable and deserving of special legal recognition to a limited extent, because the majority preference is required for the perpetuation of our species. BIG FUCKING DEAL. Get over it! It's not just "rational," it's the most logical thing I've ever heard in my life.
If you'd put the bullhorn down and quit shouting “HATE! HOMOPHOBE!” long enough to listen to what the other side is saying, maybe you'd see that YOU'RE missing something here. There is no general animosity or antipathy towards who you are; only towards your sense of self-entitlement and the arrogant expectation that society implement broad-sweeping, fundamental changes simply to make it "easier" for you to live your life by more explicitly condoning your lifestyle so that you can avoid any modicum of feeling "left out." Well screw you and the horse you rode in. Not because you're gay, but because you think that being gay somehow makes you special.
I'm straight. Will I ever get married? Who knows. Sometimes I doubt it. You know why? Because I can't ever see myself being monogamous with one person. For all I know, casual dating and hooking up could be my chosen lifestyle well into my 30's, or maybe even my 40's. That's my sexual preference, and it's no less "inherent" or "immutable" than your sexual orientation. But you don't see me chastising the structure of the American family, demanding that the government change it in order to make it easier for me to reap the same (admittedly tiny) fringe benefits that my monogamous, married friends have. Because I'm secure enough in myself to recognize that even if God didn't craft me in 100% "optimal" fashion, I can still be happy in society, living under rules designed to foster and promote different lifestyles than my own.
No one is repressing you. No one is "hating" on you. The majority in California has spoken, and they said: We think legitimate families are something special and preferable, and marriage should recognize that. So stop accusing the whole world of being out to persecute you, and stop whining about the 3 seconds of mild discomfort caused by someone being caught off guard when they find out you're gay, as if that's supposed to make us feel sorry for you. We all have deeply personal things that differ from the societal norm, and might cause awkwardness or a slight stigma. That does not make us all special classes. Your trivial preference for the same sex is no more important than my friend's preference for European women or my other friend's preference for tall women or someone else's preference for girls with huge breasts. Get over yourselves gays and move on with your lives, and please let the rest of society move on with ours. I think you'll be quite pleasantly surprised to find out that you can be entirely happy and live an oppression-free life in California without the legal right to marry.
And maybe -- just maybe -- if you stop accusing everyone who rationally disagrees with your lifestyle preference of being objectively wrong or motivated by hate, then you'll find more and more straight friends. Right now you're alienating us with your hypocrisy.
So there it is: the non-religious argument against gay marriage and for Prop 8. Let's see if it can be assailed on any grounds other than my purported "bigotry," "homophobia," or "hatred of gays." Please gays, you've come so far in the past 20 years. Can't you do better than resorting to the very sort of ad hominem attacks you yourselves fought to eradicate? We're looking for a logical, reasoned rebuttal here people! Preferably one that explains why sexual orientation is any less mutable and any more deserving of special legal recognition than all other sexual inclinations and subconscious predispositions in general.
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7 comments:
Well said!
Lets try this: Those of us who believe monogamous heterosexual relationships are built on more than “sexual gratification,” and who apply the same weight to monogamous homosexual relationships, will continue to pursue the same economic and legal protections for their property and children that the marriage contract provides heterosexuals. Many of us believe the civil union does not currently provide those on an equal level.
Those of us who believe that two consenting adults with the financial and emotional resources to raise a child, as well as couples who choose not to raise children, constitute a “legitimate family” will agree with you that they are “something special and preferable, and marriage should recognize that.”
Still, when it’s left to the will of the voters, it all comes down to opinion and all sides will continue to fight for their own.
you make a couple of good, logical arguments, but your interpretation of those arguments and the impact equal marriage rights are skewed. Your overly analytical perspective is peppered with hate - whether you actually hate or just throw it in for impact - and discounts any solid arguments you might make.
A couple of comments:
1. It's not about sexual urges or inability to control them. It's about love, life, and equality.
2. Despite your promiscuity and hooking up, no one is voting on legislation to prevent you from getting married, should one of your tricks change your ways.
Ultimately, the prop 8 type amendments are fueled by bigotry. End of story. The entire argument against equal marriage has been so politicized and over-marketed (from both perspectives) that its difficult to envision a judgment based on the real issues anyway.
Pick up one of your law books and research the history of marriage law in the US. You might learn a few things.
One other thing. It is a civil rights issue. With marriage comes rights, protections, and obligations that are not offered to same sex couples under the law.
Good point. Following, your logic, I think that there should be a proposition outlawing interracial marriage. It is "atypical" and "outside the societal norm." Just as heterosexual marriage is necessary for the survival of our species, what will happen to distinct races and ethnicities if we allow interracial marriage? Why should I give someone special rights or priveleges, just because they want "sexual gratification" from someone of a different ethnicity? Get over it and stop whining! If you want to get married, find someone of your same race.
In America, there used to be a law prohibiting interracial marriage. And there used to be a law only prohibiting white people to marry. And polygamy used to be legal. Our definition of "traditional marriage" changes as we evolve as a society, and it is closed-minded to say that your current view of "traditional marriage" is the correct one. Years from now, when gay marriage is widely accepted, you will be ashamed to admit to your children that you were against it.
And to compare gays with pedophiles is pure hatred. You compared a loving relationship between consensual adults with raping a child. You are in fact a homophobe, sir, just so you're aware.
P.S. Do you REALLY think that there's a problem with the world being underpopulated? Is the human race REALLY in danger of extinction?
AMEN!!!
FAG!
There are a lot of arguments for same-sex marriage, legal and otherwise, but I'll leave you with my personal opinion if you're interested. You can read the other arguments on my blog. :) Marriage is not as simple as a contract (or sacrament or whatever) between a man and a woman. We hope that everyone takes marriage seriously, and by seriously, that they decide to enter this institution with the person that they have chosen to be "family", that they know they have a fighting chance of making it work, of being life partners, and of having the stability and health benefits that go along with marriage. We know that married people live longer and tend to be happier than single and unmarried couples, and that their children fare better than children of unmarried heterosexual couples. This is supported by decades of research and numerous studies by the AMA, ASP, APA, and the list goes on. And governments have a stake in encouraging this, otherwise we wouldn't be so strict about making sure that people who are apply for green cards for spouses are sometimes checked for having legit relationships. We make exceptions for love when it comes to immigration, to allow people to be together and form families.
Having said that, all citizens should be able to marry the person that they want to call family and that they have a fighting chance of making that marriage work. One's sexual orientation is completely intertwined with one's spirtuality. I can't possibly have a deep spiritual connection, or fall in love, with someone I'm not sexually attracted too. Families born out of love and commitment are the best families. Family is family. We are and should be a family-oriented society. When people marry and declare their love and commitment in front of family, friends, government, and society, they are hopefully going to work harder to keep their families safe and stable. We hope that people are faithful to their partners, and no one can argue the benefits of permanent monogamy to couples (as an expression of commitment) and to society. We all benefit when people "settle down". If you don't believe me, check out the HIV rates in cultures that do not believe that monogamy and marriage go together. Should we encourage people to engage in sexual relationships within marriage if possible? I think so.
Finally, same-sex couples are settling down in large numbers, and their children are being raised out of wedlock. Some have children from previous marriages, but many are just like any other infertile couple. They either adopt, hire surrogates, or go to the sperm bank. Most humans, not just straight people, want to have families and raise children, and many recent studies have shown that those parents are more committed parents, because like infertile couples, there are no "accidents." Those couples and their families should be protected like the rest of our families are. If we are so concerned about "the children" then this would be a no brainer. But the truth, it's not about the children. It never was.
Here is one recent example that exemplifies the unfairness:
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20081227/NEWS03/312270001
I participate on a Marriage Equality group on Facebook, and even the conservatives in our group were APPALLED by this story. If this doesn't convince you, I don't know what else to say. But I agree with a previous commentor that your post is peppered with hate.
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